I’m just going to repost here without comment the latest series of posts from the smackfest that is The Great Debate On "Pornstitiution" and Blow Feminism; you may make your own assumptions while reading through.
>Except if you’d remember waaaay back at the very start, 10,000 years ago, we had KH saying that prostitution was feminist and empowering and half a dozen other buzz words I don’t, actually, sorry; at least I don’t remember her (or anyone) saying it was -categorically- empowering, feminist, yadda. Exact quote, please?
154 Aug 18th, 2006 at 1:37 pm..what I do remember is you calling her a “bloated parasite.” And wondering whether you use that sort of terminology for Walmart workers; or cube workers for giant fuckoff corporations, advertising, say (frankly I think in that instance it’d be at least as apt, if not particularly useful); or, well. Also I think you might want to tread carefully before deciding other people are engaging in “willful self-deception” about their own motivations and so forth; not unless you’d like that critical lens turned sharply back on yourself. 155 Aug 18th, 2006 at 1:46 pmFor example: RM, I could speculate that from here it looks like you’re the one who wants a “cookie” for -not- engaging in sex work, for whatever deep-seated reasons of your own, and are furious that someone who did make that choice is getting any attention and validation at all. And that for a while now in these “discussions,” you’ve been working out some serious rage that has little or nothing to do with the subjects at hand, all the while rationalizing that it’s “for our own good,” sociopolitically speaking; when actually it’s not doing a damn thing except relieving some of your own frustrations at others’ expense. but, you know, I don’t live inside your head, and thus can only speculate; and so generally -try- to go off the words that are actually on the page rather than mind-read, tempting as it is for me, always, to try. 156 Aug 18th, 2006 at 2:18 pmSo now it’s all just about the hypocrisy. Forget all the other stuff, if only hookers would stop lying to themselves & pretending to have feminist ideas in their empty little heads, you stand ready to give them an absolving hug. How appetizing. ‘Except if you’d remember waaaay back at the very start, 10,000 years ago, we had KH saying that prostitution was feminist & empowering & half a dozen other buzz words …’ You’re getting your bloated parasitic whores confused. I never said any such thing. Or is every single word you say – yes, including ‘and’ & ‘the’ – a lie? My thing was that abolitionist rhetoric about the inherently violent, coercive nature of sex work is incoherent, & that their policy proposals hurt sex workers, all of them. I mostly leave empowerment to subtler minds. And I agree that a lot of the rhetoric, not particularly here but in general, is overblown: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38558 But empowerment is about power. Power comes from increasing the range of alternatives open to women, not foreclosing any. Women choose sex work, like they choose anything else, because they judge it their best option in this world, not some other. ‘ … an inalienable right to masturbate inside another human being …’ You mean inherent, not inalienable. And nothing anyone has said here involves any such right. A trick with no money is out of luck, right or no right. A trick is out of luck if there’s no hooker around who’ll consent, right or no right. If really were such a right, no man would ever be sexually frustrated, there’d be wholesale fucking on the streets & in the church pews, everywhere, all the time, whether women consented or not. ‘ … ignoring the ones who get screwed over by full legalization …’ You beg the question. My point is that all sex workers are advantaged by decriminalization. It’s precisely the ones who want out, who most need help, who’re most hurt by current law & policy. Abolitionists argue that women are hookers only because their only alternative is starvation, homelessness, death. And many hookers do have only very bleak alternatives. But simply taking away the thing that, however loathsome to them, staves off starvation, homelessness, death, leaves them then with what? Starvation, homelessness, death. Women choose sex work because their other options are worse. Forcibly abolishing sex work leaves them with the worse options, the ones they’d rather be sex workers than accept. This is as true when the alternatives are terrible as when they’re the ones that the middle class enjoys. The only way to help anyone is to afford her better alternatives. Prohibition makes things worse, not better. And illegal markets are inherently violent (alcohol during Prohibition, drugs); criminalization leaves hookers outside the protection of the law, creates a climate of impunity that costs some of them their lives. In lieu of rational arguments against this view, you offer mostly semi-literate misogynistic hate speech. The alacrity with which abolitionists seek to foment antagonism between ‘privileged’ & other sex workers is disgusting, a crude attempt to arrogate to themselves a moral authority they haven’t earned. Like any ad hominem argument, it has absolutely no bearing on the real question of what law & policy best serves women, including poor, addicted, & trafficked women, who do sex work. It seeks – hopelessly – to elide the ties of interest & experience that bind sex workers of all kinds. Sex workers themselves recognize these attempts to split them for what they are. And really, Mildred, what have you ever done for a single whore, bloated, parasitic, or otherwise? More than me? So is all your bile really just about hookers’ use of feminist language, which you deem them unentitled to? If they’d just shut up & accept your understanding of them, & of feminism, then you’d deign to hug them for honestly, truthfully knowing their station? I don’t even believe that. You’ve already said too much. We know what you think, & there’s no taking it back. You’ll always view sex workers with a large measure of contempt, & they’ll always remember. Whores have long memories. 157 Aug 18th, 2006 at 2:49 pmGod, Anthony, you’re one ginormous dick, aren’t you? Can you get through a tirade directed at RM without making sexual suggestions like “kiss it” or some of the nastier ones like “stick it up your… [something not on the body but still sort of implying that you badly wish you could say what you really mean]” you threw out there at B|L’s site? If you knew anything about RM, you’d know she’s anything but anti-sex, dude. But it’s much easier for you to get on the warpath if she’s Mildolph Hitler, huh? You give pro-feminist men a bad name. 158 Aug 18th, 2006 at 4:13 pmI gotta say that language like “masturbate inside another human being” to describe sexual relations that one doesn’t approve of doesn’t exactly scream “sex-positive” to me; but, hey, whatever. it’s getting hot in here again, and not in a good way. 159 Aug 18th, 2006 at 4:28 pm‘I’ve gotta say that …’ And every time I read the word ‘pornstitution’ my IQ drops 4 points. Merits of the argument aside, the rhetoric desperately needs a makeover. 160 Aug 18th, 2006 at 4:35 pmRM (et all) The level your tone here at the end has reached pure out condescending. It honestly makes me think you really do not give a crap about women who sell their bodies (in any manner) and do not, for one second, think of them as humans, but rather mobile, breathing, complacent accomplices in “the patriarchy’s quest to get off”. Fine, you don’t think sex work can be empowering or feminist. You don’t have to. But suggesting that any woman involved in such work is deluded and lying to herself and more or less mentally flawed and incompetent is downright offensive, hateful, and well, wrong. Your tone of superiority is tantamount to epic hubris. Unless you have mastered the art of global wide telepathy and possess full scope of understanding regarding human motivation and psychology, you could not possibly know what any woman other than yourself truly finds empowering, liberating, feminist, whatever…yet that does not stop your from judging, and yes, I mean judging, anyone and everything that does not fall neatly in step with your party line. Whoring, of any kind, is not going anywhere. So long as people are willing to buy, and yes, WILLING to sell sex, people will do it. I also know there are plenty of women out there more than happy to use men for sex, status, and financial gain. It’s a business, and it can be both dangerous yet lucrative. Maybe you should take a step back and stop judging people who might actually enjoy the way they make a living, especially if they do see problems in the industry as a whole and are trying to change/help the situation. Not everyone is going to approach a problem with the same tactics you have chosen, but thinking there is only one way (your way) to solve a problem is not only erroneous, it is going to alienate a lot of people from even considering working with the likes of you. Sex workers are already viewed as criminals, and often, the pitiably scum of the earth, any particualar reason you feel the need to insult them even further? The last thing they need is your superiority and judgment. 161 Aug 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pmPunkAss Marc Will you marry me? Or at least let me blow you? Ok fine. 162 Aug 18th, 2006 at 6:12 pm… 163 Aug 18th, 2006 at 6:33 pm[Comment from me] “You see, RM, a real woman is not quite the reduction to a blow-up doll that you take her to be; she has nerve endings, feelings, and emotions. There is a reason why a woman just might allow a man’s penis (or a dildo, or a vibrator, or her fingers, or whatever object may subsitute) inside her vagina: IT FUCKING FEELS GOOD. To tell women that seeking consensual pleasure is to be condemned merely because it violates certain “feminist” principles is not only unconsciously dense and unfeeling; it is fundamentally fascist and…dare I say it…antifeminist. Oh…and what would you say about a man going down on a woman with his toungue and fingers; would that be considered by you to be “using the woman as a sex object”??? I mean, we are talking about a real living woman’s vagina, not a Fleshlight. Last time I checked, most men who have consensual sex with women — whether they pay for it or not — do happen to have at least a fleeting concern with the woman’s feelings….as in, whether the woman actually gets as much pleasure from the encounter as they (the guys) get.” OK, this was too funny to ignore. Are you seriously arguing that men who use prostitutes care if the woman they are sticking their penis into it ENJOYS it? And are you seriously arguing that yes she does indeed enjoy it? All those lucky prostitutes getting five or ten orgasms per night from those johns who don’t think she’s a blow-up doll – oh no they don’t. Thanks for clearing that one up Anthony. I can’t believe everybody let you get away with this bullshit. This is why it’s so hard to argue with many prostitution advocates, you seem almost completely detached from reality. Here’s a clue – most prostitutes use disassociation to get through the experience. 164 Aug 18th, 2006 at 8:02 pmFirst off, Marc, the phrase “Kiss it” wasn’t meant in the sexual tense; it was meant in the “I don’t really give a care anymore about what you think about me” sense. I’d rather have someone like Nina Hartley kiss my booty anyway….provided that I get the opportunity to kiss hers in return. RM may not be as anti-sex as, say, Jerry Falwell or the Feminists Against Sex crowd….but in my view her absolute personal disgust with those women whose sexual practices and beliefs differ from her own comes pretty damn close to being anti-sex…and thus, my view of her stands. And for the record, I long since ceased to being a “pro-feminist man”…if by that definition you mean someone who simply parrots antiporn feminism of the MacDworkinite school of thought. If that makes me in your mind an “antifeminist”….well, you can’t please everyone. Now, to Delphyne: Hell yes, dear..I’m more than just implying; I’m stating flat out that some, if not most men who frequent prostitutes or consume porn, do in fact actually care a bit more than you think about the women whom they pay for the services they offer. The fact that some men do NOT care as much does NOT erase the basic fact that other men do…and all your attempts to paint clients as innate rapists looking for the next rubber doll to use and dispose of just won’t wash away that fact. I really, really hate to break this to ‘ya, Delphyne (not really), but for most women, consensual sex with a man (or group of men) really does feel pretty damn good, and penises aren’t the evil that you and your colleagues make it out to be. (And please note the adjective “CONSENSUAL”; contrary to your thinking, I still happen to know the difference between consensual sex and rape….and it is more than just lack of consent; it is motive and intent of direct physical and bodily harm.) I’m not saying — and I have never said — that there aren’t sex workers who do happen to fit into your neat and tiny caricature as permanent victims and damsels in distress needing rescue by the Feminist Vice Squad, and those should indeed be helped to get out to the fullest extent possible. But to say that these women who do defend their profession are simply lying when they say that they really do enjoy the sexual aspect of their profession is nothing less than an arrogant and elitist and totally willfull smear and distortion…in other words, a damn lie. Call it “bullshit” if you will, Delphyne….but it is real. Back to Marc: Funny..I thought that you had dismissed B|L as an antifeminist?? Why would my remarks (which were addressed to radfems and antiporn fascists in general; not to anyone in particular) in her blog matter to you so much. I think that I’ve caused enough trouble for today…if you want to play some more, I’ll be at my blog, thinking about the next human blow up doll that I want to masturbate inside. Late, Anthony
I’m just waiting with for baited breath for Witchy-Woo and Sam to jump back in with their tag-team effort to prove me wrong….