The Final Chapter of “PunkAss Punks Pornstitution” (or “Just Bite Me, RMildred”)

[UPDATE (5-22-07): When I originally wrote this essay, me and RMildred were on opposite ends of the spectrum.  Since then, she has effectively rehabilitated herself and totally reversed my opinion of her, and she has lobbed some fine and effective missiles of her own with her own blog C*ntensquirten.  Given that, she is now totally off my "F’U" list, and is now in fact a member in good standing of the 101st FPHB.  I still stand by some of the main points I addressed here in this post last year (and Delphyne can still kiss where the sun don’t shine).  — Anthony]

 

Oh.  Freakin’. WOW. I guess that i deserved it for calling RMildred out on her bullshit…and it is expected that men who challenge antiporn feminist rhetoric get the same treatment…but the intensity is still rather stunning. I’ll just share with you the juicier comment posts…with my final response appearing last.  

caromboard Aug 22nd, 2006 at 8:40 pm

“I think the problem is that you just can’t see how anybody would make different choices than yourself”   Could you be any more patronizing? In case you hadn’t noticed, at least a couple of the people you’re trying to “educate” with your “vast knowledge” here seem to have been sex workers or done some form of sex work. I’m in favor of legalization, but honestly, if you’re talking about respecting and listening to sex workers, does that mean only those who say what you want to hear? I’ve been reading these threads and on one of them you told a former sex worker that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about when it comes to sex work. Huh? Somebody call Anthony so he can start calling people “hon,” explaining that anyone who doesn’t agree with him is a frigid, anti sex prude and explaining how good it feels for a woman to have a penis inserted in her vagina. That last part was really educational for most het women, whatever would we do without having these things expalined to us by smarter, more rational beings.  

 My response to that:

Anthony Kennerson Aug 22nd, 2006 at 9:49 pm

Oh, and to think that this thread was actually going somewhere.   Ahhh, Carmonboard….can you please explain anywhere in my posts where I really said what you thought I said in this paragraph: “Somebody call Anthony so he can start calling people “hon,” explaining that anyone who doesn’t agree with him is a frigid, anti sex prude and explaining how good it feels for a woman to have a penis inserted in her vagina. That last part was really educational for most het women, whatever would we do without having these things expalined to us by smarter, more rational beings.” First off, where did I ever call anyone “hon”?? You must have me confused with some other board, because I simply don’t do that; and didn’t do that here, either. Secondly…I never said that anyone who opposed sex work was a “frigid, anti-sex prude”; only that quite a few of antiporn activists do have major problems accepting the sexual choices of others. Not quite the same, I think. And third….I said that most women do in fact enjoy having a penis inside them….that says NOTHING about those who don’t…or those who have had penises forced on them against their will. Unless you are implying that most het woman who say outright that they really do like het sex with consenting men are simply either lying or posturing, I fail to see the relevance. Oh….and let me get this: a present day sex worker who says she has no problem with her profession and who wishes to find ways to improve it from within should not be trusted and accepted; but a former sex worker who adopts antiporn/antiprostitution rhetoric should be??? And you accuse me of not listening to others, or of only listening to whatever fits my ideology??? What we have here is simply a chasm in philosophy that just cannot be bridged. I happen to believe that women should be trusted to make their own decisions on their sexuality; you happen to disagree in favor of imposing a restrictive “feminist” sexuality on them. Fine…we’ll just have to acknowledge our differences and move on. But please…if you are going to patronize me about my positions, at least have the decency not to distort or trivialize my views. Since I’ve established my views plainly enough, I will take the hint and exit from this thread. To each his or her own, as the saying goes. Anthony
  • 53 Anthony Kennerson Aug 22nd, 2006 at 9:50 pm
    OK….my apologies, Caromboard…sorry for the typo.  
  • Which in turn brought out these three posts in rebuttal….each one progressively more insulting:

    caromboard Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:21 pm

    “can you please explain anywhere in my posts where I really said what you thought I said in this paragraph”   I’ll give it a shot. “First off, where did I ever call anyone “hon”?? You must have me confused with some other board, because I simply don’t do that; and didn’t do that here, either.” Ah, sorry Anthony, it wasn’t “hon,” it was “dear.” My bad, I should have been more accurate. There’s a tremendous difference between the two. Secondly…I never said that anyone who opposed sex work was a “frigid, anti-sex prude”; Uh, okay. “RM may not be as anti-sex as, say, Jerry Falwell or the Feminists Against Sex crowd….but in my view her absolute personal disgust with those women whose sexual practices and beliefs differ from her own comes pretty damn close to being anti-sex” ” “All that does is to make you look more and more like a crank antisex bigot in feminist drag” Nope, clearly you didn’t use the works “frigid” or “prude” so I’m wrong again. Doh! “And third….I said that most women do in fact enjoy having a penis inside them….that says NOTHING about those who don’t…or those who have had penises forced on them against their will.” OMG, really? Then lucky for me that I never suggested that that statement said ANYTHING about those who don’t or those who have had penises forced on them against their will. Whew! I dodged a bullet on that one. My point, which I think was already clear but I’ll reiterate again just for your benefit, is that unlike you, DEAR, women tend to actually have vaginas, and most of us who are heterosexual already know that most of us who are heterosexual tend to enjoy having a penis inside said vagina. We don’t need you to tell us that, Anthony, really, we actually *can* figure it out on our own (even, shockingly enough, many of the anti sex prudes, whoops, sorry, excuse me, the crank anti sex bigots in feminist drag, I would imagine). Therefore, when you may these statements : “I really, really hate to break this to ‘ya, Delphyne (not really), but for most women, consensual sex with a man (or group of men) really does feel pretty damn good, and penises aren’t the evil that you and your colleagues make it out to be.” “There is a reason why a woman just might allow a man’s penis (or a dildo, or a vibrator, or her fingers, or whatever object may subsitute) inside her vagina: IT FUCKING FEELS GOOD” it doesn’t actually come as much of a revelation. Thanks, anyway. I don’t have any idea what percentage of sex workers are happy with sex work, but I’d imagine that the percentage of women who don’t enjoy seeing other women or men patronized with typically sexist bullshit by assholes is pretty high. “Oh….and let me get this: a present day sex worker who says she has no problem with her profession and who wishes to find ways to improve it from within should not be trusted and accepted; but a former sex worker who adopts antiporn/antiprostitution rhetoric should be???” YES! That is *exactly* what I said. I thought I was being so clever about leaving that part about not trusting or listening to any sex worker who has no problem with her profession in invisible ink, but I should have known you’d find the secret 18 minute gap. You’re far too clever for the likes of the Feminist Vice Squad, no matter how deep undercover we go, you’ll find us. I believe I said I was in favor of legalization, I’m pretty sure I did, but that in no way makes this paragraph nonsensical, really. “And you accuse me of not listening to others, or of only listening to whatever fits my ideology???” This part of my comment wasn’t actually directed at you, but regardless, I was commenting on the phenomenon of the other guy in the prostitution threads who is, apparently, not actually a sex worker telling sex workers who disagreed with his positions that they don’t know a damn thing about sex work, as well as exasperated comments from others in those threads about respecting sex workers and listening to sex workers which also happened to be directed at sex workers. “What we have here is simply a chasm in philosophy that just cannot be bridged. I happen to believe that women should be trusted to make their own decisions on their sexuality; you happen to disagree in favor of imposing a restrictive “feminist” sexuality on them.” Um, yes. That’s absolutely clear from my post. We have a chasm in philosphy that cannot be bridged. I’m not sure what it is…I’m guessing that because I didn’t offer to suck your dick, then I must be a frigid anti sex prude? Sigh. Is there anything else I can do to escape my cruel fate? If I’m really, really nice and throw some condescending strawfeminist bs at other women, will you come over and explain to me about how my body works? Have pity on me Anthony, it’s hard for all of us out here who don’t have you to explain how we think and how we feel and why we’re radfems even if we’re not and what we’re saying and what it feels like when the wind touches our skin. “Fine…we’ll just have to acknowledge our differences and move on. But please…if you are going to patronize me about my positions, at least have the decency not to distort or trivialize my views.” Uh…yes, I shouldn’t have done that. Patronizing people is wrong. Distorting or trivializing their views is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
  • 56 KoalaZ Aug 23rd, 2006 at 1:56 am
    Anthony Kennerson said–I happen to believe that women should be trusted to make their own decisions on their sexuality; you happen to disagree in favor of imposing a restrictive “feminist” sexuality on them.   Is there some logic I’m missing here, because I can’t see where he/she said anything like that. Maybe defending yourself from accusations that you accuse anyone who disagrees with you on anything of being anti-sex by accusing someone who disagrees with you on something of wanting to impose a restrictive “feminist” sexuality on everyone is completely logical, no evidence needed. I don’t get it, though. Geneva–I think there are a lot of different kinds/schools of feminism and feminists. And a lot of different opinions/approaches to all kinds of topics, including prostitution. I won’t say how I feel, because Anthony Kennerson will probably let me know anyway–if it turns out I’m imposing some kind of restrictive sexuality on you, I apologize in advance. ) I’m not sure what the typical feminist response would be. We hear a lot about radfem radfem radfem on the internet, but I can’t say I’ve ever met anyone who particularly holds the views that radfems are supposed to in community organizing. Maybe some do, but it doesn’t come up when I’m around. Not that I’m an expert in community organizing or anything, it’s just that it seems stuff gets blown way out of proportion online and its influence is exaggerated in a way that’s not always reflected IRL. There’s not as much theorhetical discussion, that’s more of an internet obsession in my experience at least. JMO
  • 57 delphyne Aug 23rd, 2006 at 8:27 am
    I’ve picked lettuces in a field IACB, so you’re not fooling me that that type of work is awful. Not being rewarded properly for your work is bad but that’s not what is being discussed here.   Seriously, set yourself up to be a male prostitute for a couple of days, you too Anthony. Both of you are such strong advocates of prostitution, it could only help your case to have direct experience. Most of your customers will be male but that shouldn’t bother you if prostitution is just like any other job.
  • But that was just a prelude for RMildred to fire off the mother of all responses (personal smack at moi highlighted by me):

    R. Mildred Aug 23rd, 2006 at 1:38 pm

    You’re saying people working in sweat shops or as migrant workers are never grossly mistreated?   Did I actually say that? Prostitutes get it worse, and they are exclusively injured by nothing more or less than the sheer hatred of women of johns like Antony Kennersen. (sic) And part of the reason why johns think they can do such things to prostitutes is that they are already wandering around with the assumption that they deserve to masturbate with a woman’s body (or even a man, irregardless of who is getting screwed, men are the primary consumer of the sex industry after all, and as the male gay community is rife with patriarchy, as was mentioned during the avarosis thing, that patriarchy may be at work there too shouldn’t be too surprising) whenever they like, irregardless of whether the women they do this with likes it or likes them even. This is male privelage. And yes, I know, I said “masturbate with a woman’s body”, but I consider sex to be a mutuality thing, and a sexual act that involves one person pleasuring themselves while the other person waits for it to be over with, is something I class as masturbation, not sex. Chalk it up to a person terminological thing, or whatever, if you will. Yes this means I am dismissive and hate Antony’s sexuality, I really don’t like johns, especially johns who consider sex to be a method through whic men enforce their power over women (which is not the same thing as what happens in S&M sex, where the illusion of the dom/sub power dynamic is arousing) those ones I hate as much as Ant implies that I hate prostitutes (who I don’t consider subhuman just because they are dehumanised by their profession btw). In theory I accept that there are probably some johns who aren’t total sleaze bag rapists, but they are about as numerous as gigolo customers, which is to say, not at all numerous. Most johns are guys with huge amounts of male privelage sloshing about their pants, and a deep seated hatred of women, and like with rape, the dynamic involved in prostitution from the john’s “end” is often one revolving around power rather than actual sexual satisfaction. Which is why I started this bloody fight, the idea that women being Prostitutes and performing in porn is primarily about women being free with their sexuality is bullshit, anti-fem bullshit at that. Which is one of the many reason why calling prostitution “empowering” is bullshit, and so and so forth…and now we’re here. And don’t start using “pornstitution” again people, you don’t know my opinions on porn, which are really complex, but when it comes right down to it, I’m not for the illegalisation for porn for the same reasons I’m not for the legalisation of prostitution – all that would happen is how women are abused in the industry would change, rather than the net amount of abuse really lessening to any degree. And I’m damned if I’m gonna let government decide what sort of porn is bad and what isn’t. anyhoo, here’s a study. It makes a conservative estimate of the rate of homicide among prostitutes, and still reckons that prostitutes are murdered at 6 times the rate of other jobs with ridiculously high rates of homicide. It’s an interesting study. And ONE MORE THING, I’m a fucking MARXIST feminist you nitwits, Jesus, it’s not like I went straight for the socio-economic dynamics involved in the oppression of women in the sex industry or anything, stop comparing Dworkin to me, she did some good work for women.

     Well…it is comforting to know that RM does finally come out against outright censorship of porn (But wouldn’t that make her the ultimate antifeminist, Sam??  Pony??  Witchy-Woo?? Anyone???) But what gets me is how by simply disagreeing with her positions, I become not only an "mysogynist" but an "asshole"….and even an outright "john" who lives solely to rape and abuse women….as if these fools knew me and lived by me enough to make such an asinine assumption.  But I guess that any man who dares to challenge antiporn feminism must expect the same treatment. And finally, here’s Pony to light the final fuse:

    Pony Aug 23rd, 2006 at 5:16 pm

    Sheezlebub I had two windows open and typed the wrong name. My apolgoies. I agree with this statement you’ve made, and was speaking of that type of remark, coming from the two self-proclaimed johns and the two self-proclaimed whores. Sorry. I’m not calling them sex workers. I have too much respect for sex workers.   ## And Geneva, I read Anthony’s misogynist bile, and IACB’s bile, and the sex-phobic and prude rhetoric lobbed at anyone who questions the status quo (see: the threads here and at Pandagon) and really want nothing to do with so-called “sex pos” folks. Sorry, but if questioning the status quo means that I have issues with sex, that I have an “irrational fear of sex,” that I’m a right-wing anti-sex fanatic, then I’ll opt out of that revoloution.  

    The "self-proclaimed johns" are me and IAmCuriousBlue, I assume; and the "self-proclaimed whores" happen to be RenegadeEvolution and……Geneva??  Bitch | Lab??? Who knows??? As much as I would love to respond in kind to such personal insults, it just isn’t worth the time or the effort anymore….so I just posted this comment, which will stand as my final word on this subject and RMildred’s lunacy…hopefully forever.  Consider this my "Kiss where the sun don’t shine" moment:

    Anthony Kennerson Aug 24th, 2006 at 1:45 am

     
    WOW.
     
    Just plain fucking WOW.  
     
    Let me see here….I state clearly for about the third fucking time that I do NOT believe all radicalfeminists or antiporn activists to be “anti-sex prudes” or that even their personal sex lives has nothing to do with their stated public positions on sex work; yet I am tagged as an “misogynist” and nearly a rapist.
     
    I point out that a lot of antiporn philosophy as expressed here on this thread comes more than a bit close to the stated erotophobic rhetoric of the Christian right in its projection of an restrictive sexual morality….and I am pilloried as an “asshole” who is just peddling “bullshit”.
     
    I simply state that all women — whatever their experience in sex work may have been good, bad or ugly, liberating or exploitative — should have their experiences respected…and for that I am not only attacked as a “misogynist”, but as an actual “john” who actually abuses and rapes women for fun and pleasure.
     
    Gee…it’s almost as if Pony and RMildred and the rest lived next door to me so long that they can say so much about me.
     
    But it is this comment from RM that really takes the prize for brass balls:

    Did I actually say that? Prostitutes get it worse, and they are exclusively injured by nothing more or less than the sheer hatred of women of johns like Antony Kennersen. [Ahhh, RM…if you are going to smack me, at least get my fucking name spelled correct….it appears on my signature line, you know.] And part of the reason why johns think they can do such things to prostitutes is that they are already wandering around with the assumption that they deserve to masturbate with a woman’s body (or even a man, irregardless of who is getting screwed, men are the primary consumer of the sex industry after all, and as the male gay community is rife with patriarchy, as was mentioned during the avarosis thing, that patriarchy may be at work there too shouldn’t be too surprising) whenever they like, irregardless of whether the women they do this with likes it or likes them even. This is male privelage. And yes, I know, I said “masturbate with a woman’s body”, but I consider sex to be a mutuality thing, and a sexual act that involves one person pleasuring themselves while the other person waits for it to be over with, is something I class as masturbation, not sex. Chalk it up to a person terminological thing, or whatever, if you will. Yes this means I am dismissive and hate Antony’s sexuality, I really don’t like johns, especially johns who consider sex to be a method through whic men enforce their power over women (which is not the same thing as what happens in S&M sex, where the illusion of the dom/sub power dynamic is arousing) those ones I hate as much as Ant implies that I hate prostitutes (who I don’t consider subhuman just because they are dehumanised by their profession btw). In theory I accept that there are probably some johns who aren’t total sleaze bag rapists, but they are about as numerous as gigolo customers, which is to say, not at all numerous. Most johns are guys with huge amounts of male privelage sloshing about their pants, and a deep seated hatred of women, and like with rape, the dynamic involved in prostitution from the john’s “end” is often one revolving around power rather than actual sexual satisfaction.

    Now, RM…the fact that I happen to be a single Black man whose working class position as a middle-level supervisor and my location in South Louisiana does not allow me to even sniff at the opportunity to visit a prostitute, let alone actually have sex with one..does that affect your opinion of me as a “john” who lives to rape women?? Merely because I happened to call you out on your nonsense??
     
    Just as you do not have to be a radical feminist to support antiporn ideology (and not all radfems do, BTW); you do NOT have to be a client of a sex worker or even a man to defend the notion that women can and do enjoy sex with men in a mutually enjoyable fashion. (And none of that in any way denies the negative expierences of women who are raped and abused, either.) But I guess that you don’t even have to be a millionaire or even an actual client of a prostitute to be an evil patriarch in RM’s mind…just having an erection will do.
     
    And, I guess that my “hatred of women” (read, my opposition to the madness that is antiporn feminist philosophy) will forever damn me in the eyes of people like Delphyne, Sheelzebub, Sam, KoalaZ, RM and Pony. Well, ladies (and gentlemen), it’s just too fucking bad; because all your straw caricatures of me just won’t hold water to the truth….either about me or about the men and women you slander and distort so often.
     
    Well…if that be your view, RM, then so be it. You your way; I’ll go mine, and forever hold our peace.
     
    And to Bitch | Lab, IACB, KH and RenEv, my sincere and humble apologies for going over the top and going over the edge here; whatever disrespect I have for RMildred and the rest of the antiporn posse, I should have remembered that other people might not be as fired up as I am; and that they don’t deserve to be lumped in the same crosshairs.
     
    And finally, for RMildred personally…my three middle fingers to allow her to read between the lines. I’m finally done here….I won’t venture here to contaminate this blog again with my presence or my “hatred of women”….I promise. Anthony
  •  
  • 112 Anthony Kennerson Aug 24th, 2006 at 1:47 am
    Sorry…that line on the fourth to the last paragraph should be “You go your way…” Unlike RM, I actually care about my typos.   I’m out. Anthony

     And indeed, I am…..finally.  To hell with radical feminists, with the antiporn posse, and with all the sex haters around there.  And a special middle-fingered salute to RM and Pony for convicting me as the rapist and "john" that I am….NOT.  If that is the best that you can do to insult me for calling you out on your bullshit…..well, just bite me.  (And not in Biting Beaver’s way, either.)

    ——————————————————————————–

    UPDATE:  You know…why even bother debating these people when you hear shit like this:

    Sheelzebub Aug 24th, 2006 at 8:50 am

    Anthony, cut the crap. You are so full of shit it stinks to high heaven. You’ve gone around on your blog and in threads like this one declaring anyone who doesn’t agree with you anti-sex right-wingers. Reread your fucking posts. You said even in your hysterical rebuttal that we’re mirroring “erotophobic” rhetoric reminiscent of Christian right wingers. How odd. Here I am, basically tired of the same old same old when it comes to the “sex” industry, but I’m a fucking erotophobe and a right winger. Get a fucking clue. And drop the bullshit that you don’t use the spectre antisex prudes when you do it even in your so-called rebuttal. That comment Geneva made about how these conversations don’t occur in a vacuum? Goes both ways. You managed to alientate a pro-legalization feminist with your bile. Way to go.

    And IACB,BL’s point was that she was targeted. Well, so are people who don’t agree with porn. Or people who do to a certain extent but are still tarred as anti-sex, squares, and “repressive” or who obviously have “issues” around sex anytime we say that the status quo and the system is fucked up, or that oh, a CEO getting sexual favors from his underlings is fucked up. It’s bullshit, and I’m fucking sick to the teeth of it.

    You know what??  Fuck ’em all.

    If they aren’t capable of fucking reading what I say without resorting to name-calling, then that’s their problem, not mine.

    Did I call you "erotophobic", Sheelzebub???  No.  I said that your rhetoric comes pretty damn close to the genuinely erotophobic rhetoric of the Christian Right.  That’s not the same as "calling you a right-winger", now isn’t it???

    On the other hand, calling me a "john" and implying that the only reason for my agreement with RenEv is that I’m actually fucking her as one of her clients…how is that not the same or worse than my analysis of the actual consequenses of antiporn activism???

    You’re pissed off???  Join the family…because I am just as pissed off as you are now.  I am just sick and tired of myself and other sex-positive men being smeared as rapists and child abusers merely because we happen to disagree with your politics. I am fed up with seeing women have their own personal sexual choices villified and crucified merely because they don’t reduce their sexuality to a narrow political agenda.  And most of all, I am sooooooooo pissed off with so-called "feminists" who talk the loudest about being so persecuted about their views, yet have no qualms to go straight to the personal insults and the smear when someone calls their bullshit out and reveals them to be exactly what they are.

    If this is what passes for radical feminism these days, then just count me the hell out.

     

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    2 thoughts on “The Final Chapter of “PunkAss Punks Pornstitution” (or “Just Bite Me, RMildred”)

    1. hey, I am with you in the “getting called rude things” and being accused of shit I did not do column. Heh, apparently, I was the one you were buying sex from…you know, you being in Louisiana and me being in DC, that is one hell of a commute for some nookie…

      eh, humans, odd things, really.

    2. finally — after all that — you figure out that it’s not worth it?

      sheesh.

      as for Actually, Sheezlebub, you made my point.

      My point was that, while Shannon likes to pretend that those who say “you’re not a feminist because” are harmless because no one can take your feminist streetcard away, she’s wrong.

      There is no god who defines who a feminist is. We define it, in the groups to which we belong, with which we interact, and so forth. When one of us decides to call out others as “not feminists” we are seeking to influence public opinion in blogoliciousville.

      We are seeking to influence others as to correct feminist behavior and attitudes and ideas.

      It is the height of foolishness to deny that this process exists, particularly when, in my situation, someone came right out and publicly said she wants me to “quite my job” getting paid to be a feminist.

      If that isn’t evidence that some people would seek to do damage if they could, I don’t know what is. Thus, the rhetoric is not to be seen as harmless, but quite serious.

      to the extent that it makes people feel that I or others are not worthy of reading because of our views, then it’s a way of silencing us.

      It’s a mechanism of social control practiced in all social groups, consciously or not.

      As feminist, struggling against oppression, we have a special obligation to avoid reinscribing oppression in our practices.

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